UGen like TGrains but without amplitude envelope

Discussion:

Hanns Holger Rutz

2014-10-08 13:02:13 UTC

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hi,

is anyone aware of a UGen - perhaps from a third party plugin - that
is similar to TGrains but without enforcing the hanning amplitude on
top (perhaps no envelope or a custom provided envelope)? perhaps even
capable of processing multi-channel input buffers?

thanks, .h.h.
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Hanns Holger Rutz

2014-10-08 13:10:06 UTC

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Perhaps TGrains2 from BhopUGens:

https://github.com/supercollider/sc3-plugins/blob/master/source/BhobUGens/sc/HelpSource/Classes/TGrains2.schelp

(could use zero attack and release time I guess)

Does anyone know how TGrains and TGrains2 handle polyphony - is that
dynamically allocated and unlimited, or is there an internal max
number of voices?

If I have an SC install via my package-manager (Debian > apt), what is
the process of installing the BhopUGen plugins? Do I have to compile
them from source? Any links to a step-by-step guide?

Thanks!

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
hi,
is anyone aware of a UGen - perhaps from a third party plugin -
that is similar to TGrains but without enforcing the hanning
amplitude on top (perhaps no envelope or a custom provided
envelope)? perhaps even capable of processing multi-channel input
buffers?
thanks, .h.h.
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list
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James Harkins

2014-10-08 13:47:40 UTC

Permalink

On Wed, 08 Oct 2014 15:10:06 +0200

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
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https://github.com/supercollider/sc3-plugins/blob/master/source/BhobUGens/sc/HelpSource/Classes/TGrains2.schelp
(could use zero attack and release time I guess)

I'm not aware of any SC granular UGen that allows multichannel buffers.
TGrains2 is no exception.

GrainBuf and its cousins support a custom envelope, sampled and loaded
into a separate buffer.

Also, the GrainBuf units have a parameter for the maximum number of
simultaneous grains, whose default is 512. I don't know TGrains does it.

hjh

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Hanns Holger Rutz

2014-10-08 13:51:54 UTC

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Ha!

so that's the plugins compile error - GrainBuf is already part of
standard SC now. So I think that should be perfect, thanks for the
reminder!

Best, .h.h.

On Wed, 08 Oct 2014 15:10:06 +0200 Hanns Holger Rutz

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https://github.com/supercollider/sc3-plugins/blob/master/source/BhobUGens/sc/HelpSource/Classes/TGrains2.schelp

(could use zero attack and release time I guess)

I'm not aware of any SC granular UGen that allows multichannel
buffers. TGrains2 is no exception.
GrainBuf and its cousins support a custom envelope, sampled and
loaded into a separate buffer.
Also, the GrainBuf units have a parameter for the maximum number
of simultaneous grains, whose default is 512. I don't know TGrains
does it.
hjh
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Daniel Mayer

2014-10-08 15:15:40 UTC

Permalink

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
Does anyone know how TGrains and TGrains2 handle polyphony - is that
dynamically allocated and unlimited, or is there an internal max
number of voices?

Hi Hanns Holger,

in the sense of per-grain parameter control and fx handling
polyphony can be done with TGrains and a multichannel trigger,
but it's rather tricky, Julian suggested this way
(the PulseDivider discussion we had then, also started here)

http://new-supercollider-mailing-lists-forums-use-these.2681727.n2.nabble.com/per-grain-control-of-amplitude-in-GrainFM-td7598072.html

You have to choose channel (i.e. PanAz) params correctly,
a permanent source of confusion as you stated recently.
I've added an example with this strategy to miSCellaneous lib,
Nr. 1e in the Buffer Granulation tutorial.

I'm not aware of combining this trick with multichannel buffers is possible
with any of the granulation ugens mentioned, you'd have to check.

Anyway I think differentiated control of grains ('granular polyphony')
is *much* easier with Patterns, also using multichannel buffers/buffer arrays.

Greetings

Daniel

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www.daniel-mayer.at
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Hanns Holger Rutz

2014-10-08 15:22:15 UTC

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Hi Daniel,

GrainBuf is fine basically. You can easily multi-channel expand that
since the trigger is deterministic.

The problem I'm having now is that polyphony in that case is locked
in. E.g. if I want to feed the result through a resonant filter, there
is no way to control each grain's individual resonance frequency.

The only solution for that (apart from all-client side which is not
feasible in my case) would be to build polyphony from scratch on the
server side. The problem is that scsynth doesn't have a mechanism that
would keep unused voices idle (if I'm not mistaken), so with `Select`
and co you will end up wasting a lot of CPU resources.

Wouldn't it be possible to write a UGen that "wraps" a sub-tree and
turns calculation on and off, similar to how Max' poly~ works? Is
there anything in scsynth that would prevent this from being
implemented? UGens could still run all an init-cycle and then just
pause as if they were "demand-rate", right?

Best, .h.h.

Am 08.10.2014 um 15:10 schrieb Hanns Holger Rutz

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
Does anyone know how TGrains and TGrains2 handle polyphony - is
that dynamically allocated and unlimited, or is there an internal
max number of voices?

Hi Hanns Holger,
in the sense of per-grain parameter control and fx handling
polyphony can be done with TGrains and a multichannel trigger, but
it's rather tricky, Julian suggested this way (the PulseDivider
discussion we had then, also started here)
http://new-supercollider-mailing-lists-forums-use-these.2681727.n2.nabble.com/per-grain-control-of-amplitude-in-GrainFM-td7598072.html
You have to choose channel (i.e. PanAz) params correctly, a
permanent source of confusion as you stated recently. I've added an
example with this strategy to miSCellaneous lib, Nr. 1e in the
Buffer Granulation tutorial.
I'm not aware of combining this trick with multichannel buffers is
possible with any of the granulation ugens mentioned, you'd have to
check.
Anyway I think differentiated control of grains ('granular
polyphony') is *much* easier with Patterns, also using multichannel
buffers/buffer arrays.
Greetings
Daniel
----------------------------- www.daniel-mayer.at
-----------------------------
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Daniel Mayer

2014-10-08 15:34:30 UTC

Permalink

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
The problem I'm having now is that polyphony in that case is locked
in. E.g. if I want to feed the result through a resonant filter, there
is no way to control each grain's individual resonance frequency.

It is - as said have a look at Ex. 1e from miSCellaneous lib
which is doing just that, per-grain filter effect -
in short the frequencies must be demanded by the
correctly indexed channel of the multichannel trigger, before mixing.

Greetings

Daniel

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Hanns Holger Rutz

2014-10-08 15:43:13 UTC

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Am 08.10.2014 um 17:22 schrieb Hanns Holger Rutz

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
The problem I'm having now is that polyphony in that case is
locked in. E.g. if I want to feed the result through a resonant
filter, there is no way to control each grain's individual
resonance frequency.

It is - as said have a look at Ex. 1e from miSCellaneous lib which
is doing just that, per-grain filter effect -

Exactly, you divide the triggers and mix. So you have to be very good
guessing the number of voices you need, and CPU always runs all voices
no matter if you're using them or not. (trigRate varies in my case).

Best, .h.h.

in short the frequencies must be demanded by the correctly indexed
channel of the multichannel trigger, before mixing.
Greetings
Daniel
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Daniel Mayer

2014-10-08 19:23:22 UTC

Permalink

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
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Am 08.10.2014 um 17:22 schrieb Hanns Holger Rutz

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
The problem I'm having now is that polyphony in that case is
locked in. E.g. if I want to feed the result through a resonant
filter, there is no way to control each grain's individual
resonance frequency.

It is - as said have a look at Ex. 1e from miSCellaneous lib which
is doing just that, per-grain filter effect -

As usual with SynthDefs the maximum channel number is fixed
and you can use less by zeropadding.
'Voices' in this example means the maximum number of overlapping
grains, the 'overlap' param. Haven't tested with TGrains,
but with GrainBuf it's limited to 512 - which should be sufficient
for most use cases.

The mapping to output channels on the other hand
might still be handled in a flexible way, just like triggering
filter frequencies per grain, grouping and routing grain chunks to different
outputs can be triggered dynamically.
I suppose this to become a quite unpleasant index fiddling,
but it might pay (compared to Pbind granulation) if you do CPU-heavy granulations
and could be an interesting possibility for spatialization effects.

Greetings

Daniel

-----------------------------
www.daniel-mayer.at
-----------------------------

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Josh Parmenter

2014-10-08 19:34:04 UTC

Permalink

Also - in josh ugens in sc3 plugins, there are variants of the basic ugens that allow grain by grain amp control.
Best
Josh

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Josh Parmenter
www.realizedsound.net/josh
*/

Post by Daniel Mayer

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
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Am 08.10.2014 um 17:22 schrieb Hanns Holger Rutz

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
The problem I'm having now is that polyphony in that case is
locked in. E.g. if I want to feed the result through a resonant
filter, there is no way to control each grain's individual
resonance frequency.

It is - as said have a look at Ex. 1e from miSCellaneous lib which
is doing just that, per-grain filter effect -

As usual with SynthDefs the maximum channel number is fixed
and you can use less by zeropadding.
'Voices' in this example means the maximum number of overlapping
grains, the 'overlap' param. Haven't tested with TGrains,
but with GrainBuf it's limited to 512 - which should be sufficient
for most use cases.
The mapping to output channels on the other hand
might still be handled in a flexible way, just like triggering
filter frequencies per grain, grouping and routing grain chunks to different
outputs can be triggered dynamically.
I suppose this to become a quite unpleasant index fiddling,
but it might pay (compared to Pbind granulation) if you do CPU-heavy granulations
and could be an interesting possibility for spatialization effects.
Greetings
Daniel
-----------------------------
www.daniel-mayer.at
-----------------------------
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James Harkins

2014-10-08 23:24:29 UTC

Permalink

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
The only solution for that (apart from all-client side which is not
feasible in my case) would be to build polyphony from scratch on the
server side. The problem is that scsynth doesn't have a mechanism that
would keep unused voices idle (if I'm not mistaken), so with `Select`
and co you will end up wasting a lot of CPU resources.

The mechanism in scsynth for dynamically allocating synthesis units is
/s_new. If the triggering rate is below, oh, 40-50 grains/sec, defining a
SynthDef for one and only one grain and controlling it by a pattern should
work. Otherwise, you could take a hybrid approach: one SynthDef handles,
say, 3 or 4 grains. Triggers would come from a "master control" synth and
go onto control buses. The control synth could also pause and unpause the
child nodes as needed [1]. This wouldn't be easy but... perhaps feasible?

(I'm going into three consecutive very busy days, so I won't have time to
write a prototype for this approach.)

hjh

[1] http://doc.sccode.org/Classes/Pause.html

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Daniel Mayer

2014-10-09 01:01:51 UTC

Permalink

Yes, hybrid approaches are very interesting in this regard.
I haven't tried the specific one you're describing here, James, but others (Examples 3x in my tutorial).
To keep the overlap size variable without wasting CPU - though it might well be that
this is not a real restriction, rather disturbing by being 'ugly' -
I could also think of driving 'granular clouds' - as already named here on the list -
synths with Demand rate ugens, triggered by a Pattern/Player.
This would be a variant of Ex. 3d.
To adapt it for variable overlap sizes you could generate
a number of SynthDefs with overlap sizes up to the max you need ('SynthDef factory').
The Pattern (or other client-side control) would then be defined to select the
synthdefs with sizes needed for granular clouds.
This way Event durations would define the times between
changes of the overlap param - resp. the beginnings of changes as they
would depend on trigRates and overlappings of granular clouds also.
So a bit of blurring, but the client-side control wouldn't be complicated.

Regards

Daniel

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Hanns Holger Rutz

2014-10-09 08:20:24 UTC

Permalink

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Thanks James,

if I come up with a general implementation in my system, I'll
definitely go the Pause route I think. But it means a lot of
scaffolding in my client (establish buses and cross-synth linking
mainly), so postponed to indefinite future :)

best, .h.h.

Post by James Harkins

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
The only solution for that (apart from all-client side which is
not feasible in my case) would be to build polyphony from scratch
on the server side. The problem is that scsynth doesn't have a
mechanism that would keep unused voices idle (if I'm not
mistaken), so with `Select` and co you will end up wasting a lot
of CPU resources.

The mechanism in scsynth for dynamically allocating synthesis units
is /s_new. If the triggering rate is below, oh, 40-50 grains/sec,
defining a SynthDef for one and only one grain and controlling it
by a pattern should work. Otherwise, you could take a hybrid
approach: one SynthDef handles, say, 3 or 4 grains. Triggers would
come from a "master control" synth and go onto control buses. The
control synth could also pause and unpause the child nodes as
needed [1]. This wouldn't be easy but... perhaps feasible?
(I'm going into three consecutive very busy days, so I won't have
time to write a prototype for this approach.)
hjh
[1] http://doc.sccode.org/Classes/Pause.html
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Daniel Mayer

2014-10-08 15:26:38 UTC

Permalink

Post by Daniel Mayer

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
Does anyone know how TGrains and TGrains2 handle polyphony - is that
dynamically allocated and unlimited, or is there an internal max
number of voices?

As this cascading issue costed me some hours of
walking through false thought loops and PulseDivider is used
in the example 1e it might be of interest for others too:

http://new-supercollider-mailing-lists-forums-use-these.2681727.n2.nabble.com/PulseDivider-start-arg-td7598216.html

Regards

Daniel

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